Interview with Arie Bober, 25th May 1971 in Paris The Israeli Socialist Organisation (ISO-Matzpen) has been in existence since 1962 and is fighting under conditions which are, to say the least, difficult. Its various international positions and its courage in leading an anti-Zionist and anticapitalist struggle within Israel are well-known.
-Even after the appearance of the Palestinian Resistance, the ISO (Matzpen) has continued to develop itself in its own field of action. The ISO is at the same time a part of the vanguard in the Middle East, and an indomitable political force within Israel. Could you define the nature of your links with the revolutionary Arab movement and your role within Israel?
The ISO sees itself as a group-an organisation —which hopes to construct a vanguard party within Israel. It will be a part of a Revolutionary Organisation in the Middle East which we see as a necessary instrument for a victorious anti-imperialist struggle and for a socialist revolution, or transformation, within the area. The war of June '67 has placed the whole of the Palestinian people in the vanguard of the struggle in the area. For the first time it no longer expected others to solve its problems but endeavoured to carry out concrete political actions such as illustrated by the whole struggle of the Resistance. This is why we have unconditionally supported the Palestinians in their struggles against the Zionist occupation. At the same time, however, we have criticised the political programme of the various Palestinian organisations. Our main criticism was the limitation of their field of reference to the Israel/Palestine conflict. The solutions which they proposed bore relation only to Palestine. This is why, for example, we criticise the programme of El Fatah. Moreover, we believed that a political struggle was important both for clarification and for the purpose of education, and that is why we have engaged in a dialogue of this nature with the Popular Democratic Front with both our organisations publishing articles to clarify the position of El Fatah. The imperialist offensive of '70 and the tragic consequences for the whole of the Palestinian movement, and especially for its left wing, have proved the correctness of our criticisms and have shown that one cannot hope to launch the Palestinians alone against imperialism, Zionism and the Arab reaction and expect anything else but a defeat. And naturally the illusion persists, notably amongst El Fatah, that as long as they don't intervene in the internal affairs of their Arab "brother" countries, then it is possible to unite / the classes within the different Arab regimes in a united front against Zionism. This shows that they have totally misunderstood the profound nature of the links between Israel and imperialism. Israel is the watchdog of imperialism in the Middle East. We who are in Israel see it as one of our objectives in the struggle against Zionism and its links with imperialism to try and tear the Israeli masses away from the deology and practice of Zionism. -The imperialist offensive of September 70 whose repercussions are just about starting to be felt with the events in Egypt has not failed to have direct consequences in Israel. What are the qualitative changes which have taken place there since?
Since last September the main role of the ISO within Israel and abroad has been, as 1 have said above, to demystify Zionism-especially amongst the youth. Although according to our analysis Israel is a class society, we say that the internal class contradictions are overdetermined by the fact that the Israeli nation as such is a privileged society, a solonial power vis a vis the Arab world and the Palestinians.
After the first phase of the imperialist offensive of '70, followed by the truce and ceasefire in the area of the canal, he internal contradictions within Israel came again to the oreground, as was shown by the trade union action in srael, the intensification of the strikes, and the open struggle petween Oriental and Sephard Jews against the Israeli tapitalist system. What is important to bring out is that the nternal contradictions, as well as the radicalisation of the outh, are directly related to the Zionist nature of Israeli ociety, not just to the nature of all capitalist societies. srael is a capitalist society, but not a "normal" capitalist ociety, a colonial society. This is why while the external risis was taking place, necessitating the maximum security, figid control, etc., all the internal contradictions were stifled, ncluding its external manifestations such as strikes, etc. This explains why until last year the only layers of society o radicalise were the youth and the Arab population of srael who were direct victims of Zionist repression, just as he Arabs in the occupied territories. Confronted with an indless war, youth sees itself being given ideological explanaions to justify this. But as soon as the outside crisis has the Oriental Jews who live under bad conditions and who are at the very bottom of the social ladder in Israel are told that they must await their turn: this has created the social basis for the Black Panthers" phenomenon. This is why over the last few months the Matzpen group is in a position where it can not only demystify Zionism in a general way. partly by orientating its propaganda towards the youth, but can also intervene in the class struggle and in this way transforms its propagandistic nature into an active force directly and concretely engaged in the class struggle.
-What are the dynamics and the meanings of the Sephard (Black Panthers') movement in Israel?
The majority of the Jewish population (64%) in Israel are Sephard. The overwhelming majority are wage earners, proletarian or lumpen. In Israel the Sephards have been exploited as a wage force under the capitalist system, and their whole culture and tradition has been destroyed. The price they have to pay to become "accepted" in Israeli society has been that they "Westernise" themselves. (To cite Zionist propaganda, "to avoid the danger of "levantisation'".) One of the principal means of obtaining some sort of stability in the face of the ever-increasing inequality in Israel has been by playing on the chauvinist elements so as to try and unite Israeli society vis a vis its neighbours. The cease-fire, which I have already mentioned, a new influx of immigration coming especially from the USSR and from western societies have suddenly brought all the internal contradictions into the open. While the Oriental Jews all over the country live in disgusting conditions and in hovels, new projects to house the new immigrants who have smaller families and large incomes have materialised. Israel is now confronted with a contradiction: to put into effect one of the aims of Zionism, namely to achieve the integration of the Diaspora (the reintegration of all the dispersed Jews) -which is an aim Zionism has chosen to implementputs the Sephard community in contradiction not with a "normal" capitalism system, but with a Zionist capitalist system. The first slogan of the Panthers was: "When will Abuthol be the equal of Faigin?" 1 This conflict transcends the immediate problem of housing shortage and small reforms because the Israeli society, being a Zionist society, is incapable of solving the problems of Oriental Jews. To solve this problem would first of all mean changing the whole capitalist system in Israel. And, more important, even a bourgeois "reformist" policy would be unable to implement the priorities such as "the reassembling of all immigrant Jews" and would put into question the whole raison d'etre of the Israeli society. And therefore our organisation supports the "Black Panther" movement, or any other group fighting for the self-organisation of the Sephard masses. And this is why we say that: "Abuthol will be equal to Faigin when Mohammed is equal to Abuthol." In concrete terms this means that the role of Matzpen in the struggle is to mobilise support for the defence of the "Black Panthers" and then to instil in them the need to go beyond the ethnic conception of Eastern Jews to a class conception, which in Israel can only be an international conception. -The ISO has recently experienced a split which witnessed the departure of two tendencies. Which political considerations caused this split, and what is the real nature of your divergences with the two groups that broke away? With regards to the two tendencies which left Matzpen: the first is a Maoist tendency. Basically it shares our analysis of Zionism and of the nature of the Israel/Arab conflict. But they are less critical than we are of the petty-bourgeois regimes and tendencies in the Arab movement. They are not "real" Maoists because they have no role to play as Maoists within the Israeli society (they should join up with El Fatah, for example. This explains why they are at present negotiating to join up with Rakah [pro-Moscow C.P.). It is totally contradictory for revolutionary Maoists to adhere to a Stalinist organisation which is a partisan of the Rogers plan and American imperialism. It is only in Israel that one can find "new left Maoists" who have links with imperialism.
The other group, the Lambertists group [French Healyites], has gone in the opposite direction. Their analysis of Zionism is worthy of a tightrope-walker. That is to say, they undermine and even ignore the whole reality of Israel as a colonial country. And hence they look at the situation in very mechanistic terms, as being a conflict between Zionism, the Palestinians and, of course, the Arab world. Their analysis of the June war, for example, is that it was a war between the Israeli and Egyptian bourgeoisie. When they define Zionism as the ideology of the Israeli bourgeoisie, not onlv do thev falsifv historv but morenver they are makinn the Palestinian people is only a form of 'barbaric socialis This divergence has strategic implications within the revc tionary groups. They can conceive of an independent soçialist revolution in Israel. For us this is totally inconce able. A socialist revolution depends entirely on the revoli tionary developments in the Arab world. And secondly, according to the Lambertist analysis, given that Israel is a "normal capitalist state", the tactics for intervening in th class struggle are purely syndicalist tactics. Consequently all their efforts are directed to concrete work in the fact where they are unsuccessful. This is hardly surprising considering that 80 years of Zionist work has shown the inefficacy of such tactics.?
In our analysis we must confront Zionism at its roots. Until we have overcome the Zionist pretensions and idec logy we will not advance in our intervention in the worki class. The radical development of the struggle of the Sept Jews for equal rights, as shown by the "Black Panthers" movement has proved our analysis to be a correct one.
-Can one say that the SIAH is a Zionist movement? Absolutely. They are Zionists because even the most radi amongst them see the solution to the Jewish question in purely Zionist terms and in the framework of the pre-19t frontiers. -The Israeli government has on several occasions "missed the opportunity" to conclude a "peace" negotiation witt the Arab states. To what extent is it disposed to meet the strategic and economic interests of imperialism? We must understand that Israel is not a normal puppet of imperialism. There is a political alliance between imperialism and Zionism. To be able to create an independent, exclusively Jewish state (which has been the aim right fro the beginning) by chasing off the indigenous population, the Zionists had to have the support of the four great powers in the matter. This is why early on the Zionists, first Herz, and then the partisans in Balfour's declaration, tried to get an alliance with the dominating powers in the area. When the conflict between British imperialism and t aim of an independent Jewish state intensified, the Zioni: turned to American imperialism, which took over the British heritage after the Second World War, as the police neo-colonialism. It is a political alliance founded on a common political aim: the imperialists want to maintain Middle East as backward as possible so as to be able to sat guard their political and economic interests. The Zionists want exactly the same thing so that the Arab world accep a Zionist state which is as large as possible. They also see danger of any revolutionary development in the Arab wor But there are oppositions which explain the "American pressure" and the "independent Israeli policies". Accordii to use there has been no real American pressure on Israel impose a neo-colonial solution, at least up till now. Ameri imperialism is not only trying to maintain its domination over Jordan, Lebanon and Saudi-Arabia; it is equally tryir to oust the Russians from the area. The recent exchanges Egypt were only a beginning. Their intention is to mainta the imperial neo-colonial status quo in the area, a status q which is favourable to their interests. When they have achieved this aim there will be no problem whatsoever for them to impose their solution on the Israelis. Israel is tota 107519715708 58 1052
of tactics to adopt: namely, to what extent can one try to