Interview with Tony Soares, prominent black militant, one of the founder-member of UPA, (Universal Coloured Peoples" Association) who has just spent 18 months in prison on a 2 year sentence Can you tell us first about the circumstances in which you were arrested?
The circumstances arose from a leaflet distributed prior to the October 27th demonstration of 1968 organised by the VSC. Apparently there was a leaflet street tactics to be used at the demonstration. My change related to aueged distnibution of this leanier.
and another published by the UCPA which merely called on all black people to join in a militant riotously; that was count number one. Count number two was inciting persons unknown to carry offensive weapon; count three was issuing threatening writing, or something like that, which was dropped.
What were the actual circumstances in which you were arrested?
I was arrested a month after the alleged offence and after the demonstration itsel. Three pies from the special branch were waiting for me as 1 came out of work and they said they'd got a warrant for my arrest on a charge of incitement. They came and searched my room without a search warrant, and took a lot of stuff, including leaflets, papers, some ball-bearings, some paint, some pieces of wood anc some powder;
apparently they were looking for explosive, which I lidn't have.
And do you think they planted them?
They planted the leaflets.
Had you written the leaflets?
No. I had only written a note on the leaflets; I picked up the leaflets at a meeting at the Regent Street Polytechnic and I made a little note on it and soon after the meeting I gave them to a bloke, who must have either given them to the Guardian or to the police, I don't know.
What did the leaflets say?
Well the major part of the leaflet was really a question of whether to march to the Grosvenor Square Embassy or not; the offending section, which was entitled tactics, was about linking arms, throwing stones at the police, Molotov cocktails, that was all. It wasn't really significant, not really I think of great importance. There were several other leaflets going round of that What about the trial?
The main issue at the trial was not the actual facts of the case but my political beliefs. Initially there was only one charge at the magistrate's court; I was supposed to have incited persons unknown to carry offensive weapons. At the beginning the police were prepared to have it dealt with at the magistrate's, but for some reason or other, the magistrate wouldn't have My an ne sent it up to the Old Balley.
He presumably wanted a longer sentence. Yes. He also said he had never come across a charge like that before, and he was not competent to handle it. But at the trial the police brought one police witness, a policewoman who said that she saw me give out the leaflet about tactics and another which just called on all black people to demonstrate-attend the demonstration. She said I gave it out at a meeting at which there were only three black people. There were eye-witnesses who had testified there were no leaflets handed out at all at that particular meeting in fact there were some people from the BBC present who were willing to testify. But the issue in the court was that the judge started questioning me about the leaflet, and also made an issue of having found some ballbearings in my house which had nothing to do with the demonstration at all; nothing to do with the charge either because the charge was not carrying offensive weapons; the charge was inciting others to carry offensive weapons. It was really a farce, at the trial, I think it was a foregone conclusion that I would be sent down. I was refused bail during the trial even though I had had bail for the past five months. Did you have lawyers?
Yes, there was a lawyer, but he wasn't good. He was one of the arselickers you know who tried to convince me to plead guilty for something I hadn't done, which I refused, and he wasn't happy about it.
Why didn't you try to get somebody better if he tried to convince you to plead guilty.
case. At that time I was extremely busy organising the January demonstration for the Commonwealth prime ministers conterence, so t didn t nave tune to sort Enis legal matter out, but of course my impression was the charge was so simple and so ridiculous, something I hadn't done, I would probably pay a fine and get finished with it. As it turned out they seized on the pportunity to put me inside Vas there a jury Oh yes there was a jury but it was an all white jury;
and the way the judge summed it up, he more or less directed them to find me guilty and they took only a short time to do so, a very short time. In fact the directing was totally against me and when I appealed, the appeal judge noticed that the judge appeared to be adverse to the applicant. But he said the matter was left to the jury, so there was no error in law, therefore he could not do anything.
The jury was told in effect to convict you because you were the kind of person who might have landed out these leaflets?
Yes in fact the jadge said this man's political convictions are such that he cannot be telling the And why do you think that they decided to arrest you and finally to send you down for two years on an unproven technical charge?
I think, first of all, the fact that the special branch actually arrested me and conducted this case and the local police were not involved, shows that it was part of a plan from probably high up; and it fitted into a pattern in which UPA members were being picked up on various charges. At that time Obi Egbuna's trial had just finished. It was part of a systematic campaign to intimidate and harrass the leadership of the UCPA, as it existed then.
Do you think they had a realistic estimation of the dangers of UCPA?
I suppose the fact that they treated you in that way is a tribute to the strength and organisation of the UCPA.
Do you think they had a realistic estimation of the dangers of UCPA? I suppose the fact that they treated you in that way is a tribute to the strength and organisation of the UCPA. There was a lot of following for the UCPA; it was very popular among the black masses, and they turned out for the UCA in a way they never did for any other lett wing movement or organisation at that time It had enormous potential; it was capable of arousing the masses, and this is something that they realised very quickly, as they realised after the first incident that happened in 1967, when 200 black people surrounded a police station in Hyde Park. Soon afterwards four brothers were picked up on charges of inciting to racial hatred under Section 6 of the Race Relations Act, and they were fined for talking in Hyde Park about this. After that there were other people arrested on charges like assualt and then of course there was Obi Egbuna's case and 1 was arrested: and recently there have been quite a lot of people Do you think the policy of intimidating the leaders of UCPA was effective from the authorities point of view?
Well I don't know what they set out to achieve but it certainly wasn't effective from our point of view. None of us have been intimidated, maybe a few have dropped out, but on the whole the black power organisations are continuing fairly strong, gaining more members all the time. In fact it won't be long before we have a very strong national movement, unique in the history of black people in Britain.
Will this be UPA?Or the Panthers? or another organisation?
I wouldn't like to comment on that, you see, because the policies have changed since I have been in prison; I have been out of touch. I would say that a movement should be judged by its response from the people. If the UCPA is getting a response from the black people, then UCA could be the movement of the future; but if it's the Panthers who are getting not only a response from the people but also.special attention from the pigs, then it must be that the Panthers are taking the right line and the masses are responding to them and the establishment is also responding to the situation.
Do you think the Panthers are getting a rather than on Marxist slogans?
Well, the main contradiction to black people here is certainly racism. To them the oppressor is white. The class oppressor and the race oppressor coincide here, because the great majority of the black people here are workers. There is no such thing as a black bourgeoisie, only a few individuals; there are people who are imperialist-minded, they would like to be imperialists, they would like to be the bourgoisie; but they are not the bourgeoisie, they do not have the means to be this: they are not given opportunities because the bourgeoisie and the whole imperialist set-up is a very exclusive club, and the black man wito is bourgeoisminded is forced to realise this. You see the great majority of the people here are working class, so to them the bourgeoisie is white the oppression is white, and they not only suffer from class oppression but also from racial oppression from the white working class, from their own workmates. You can expect them to unite with the white worker when the white worker turns round all the time and tells them to get back where they come from.
So far the black organisations have mobilised people in communities and not so much in industry, they haven't attempted to use the industrial power of the black people? The Asian comrades, Indians and Pakistanis, have organisea maustrany qune a lot. ne incan worker: Association is doing some very good work among foundry workers in the Midlands and the Pakistani comrades from the Black Peoples Alliance are also doing a lot of excellent work among the workers in Bradford and other places. It won't be long I think before we reach a stage where we'll be able to organise the West Indians workers. But one thing you must understand, our main contradiciton here is white racism. Also we have contradictions among our own society; there are black landlords, this kind of thing; but compared to what we are suffering from the racist set up in this country these are minor 1 think. And what about prison? Can you tell us something about the conditions in prison? Well, I was first in Wormwood Scrubs; it's a real shit hole, you know, a dungeon. There is no other word to describe it. You have three in a cell, it's overcrowded, the food is totally inedible, and the screws are beasts. The first week I was there, there was a minor riot; just somebody setting fire to their cell and turning their water taps on, you know, things like that. We were kept four days "banged up" as they call it, locked up; no exercise, no work, nothing. We were in the cells for 23 hours a day. The whole atmosphere was very bad in Wormwood Scrubs: there was a lot of trouble and the screws were very vicious. Were they particularly vicious against you? No not against me; against black people, yes. I wasn't singled out or anything Then you were transferred to Maidstone? Yes. Maidstone was better. The screws were local people. The deputy governor and the governor were pigs, particularly prejudiced against black people, so that if you went in for any minor offence they took remission off you. And when a white bloke who was unact wearmen tor autressive tenaencies went to fight with a black chap who did his best to avoid a fight ine black guy lost a monta s remission over tnat Black guys find they have little chance of parole or hostel; if you are oing really hostel; if you are doing really long sentences, you are normally entitled to hostel the last few months, but very few black guys actually got this and very few black guys got parole. In Maidstone in particular the system, discruminates against black peopic, tere just can be no doubt it you know its perfectly obvious. Were the screws racist in this way? No, just one or two maybe; but, well, the whole population is racist anyway so to that extent they were. They were all pleased when the conservatives won And the white convicts too: they were an extremely reactionary lot; they are petty-bourgeios minded; there was one guy who came and said to me he was so pleased the conservatives had won, it was going to "get rid of you lot". I said they are also strong on the law and order issue, so Enoch Powell's going to give you 20 years wien they catch you next time. The guy turns round and says "I don't care as long as he gets rid of your lot". The black inmates didn't mix much with the whites; we ate separately. But the thing that